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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 16:06:00 -
[1]
CCP, i was excited to hear about dominion coming in to change the Null sec space issues many of players have complained about for the past few years or months that i have actually concerned myself with that space. That is to say i was excited up until this blog. The way i understand this blog has only made me worried and concerned about how you are planning on implementing changes.
First off i would like to point out that when you first highlighted that changes would be made in your speeches at fan fest i came away with the notion that you were going to make it so we could upgrade our systems in null sec space with higher quality sites and rats to kill which would net more isk in those regions. I had visions of finding a few more sites than already present in system but also that we would find more quality items worth more. For example, a few more ore sites with rarer ores to mine, or hacking sites with a greater chance of more valuable loot.
After reading the blog i understand it now as if you are just adding a few more sites per upgrade level. this i thought was fine up until i read about the reality of the current sites from the pilots out in null sec space. Now i can't collaborate their claims as to think that most sites are worthless as i haven't spent too much time in null sec but their claims are rather disturbing and undermines your idea of quantity of sites overt he quality of them. After all if the miners in my corporation want to mine our system more they would want to find not only the typical menial ore like tritanium and pyrite but also some more rare stuff like zydrine to make it more profitable for them.
Another thing i noticed was the cost you have posted to maintain sovereignty of a system. I could understand the way you got the price for the territorial claim unit being 20 million a day. that being the price of fuel for 5 POS's a day. Does this mean we no longer need fuel for the 5 POS we have in a system with a TCU in place? Because not only were the POS profitable because they not only served to claim sovereignty but also allowed you to run other jobs like research, or building ships that turned out much of our profit to begin with.
Now here is what your current system is doing to operations in null sec and why there is such an outrage at the cost. Not only do you have the operational cost of POS's still to deal with, but you are taking away a feature that made POS's affordable and why people spent that much for fuel, but your adding on the same price of fuel to hold systems now. Your doubling the price of holding space for people... which as i know wont make it more accessible for other corporations or alliances to access.
Another thing is the price of the addons. as i stated with the previous paragraph your charging us twice for holding a system currently and now with the cynosoral field jammer and jump bridges in particular your taking more things a POS was good for and charging us AGAIN for those things. Only increasing the price and further alienating new corps from seeking null sec space. I can understand why you priced them so high however to prohibit people from making every system have every upgrade.
So what im trying to say is with the current numbers you are only marginally increasing the net profitability of systems while exponentially increasing the price of holding space, because as i remember you also said about slowly increasing the price as people held more space on top of the base price.
Please i implore you to reconsider the numbers you have posted and lower them significantly. I could understand the current prices if you were going to hold say 2 plus CONSTELLATIONS worth of systems, but for starters i propose these numbers.
TCU - 7 mil per day INFS Hub - 3 mil per day supercapital construction - 1 mil per day cynosoral navigation - 3 mil per day ADV logistics network - N/A Cynosural suppression - 4 mil per day
Now i say no logistics network because...
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 16:12:00 -
[2]
to only hold one system you can't have a jump bridge network and i dont know how you would work that into the mechanics but im sure you could figure it out somehow.
The price for everything i have listed is 18 million a day. For a new corporation in null sec i would think this would be reasonable considering that for say operating 4 POS's they can hold a system and have access to plus allow them to anchor the addons like the jammer or nav beacon at 1 or 2 ACTUAL POS's in the system. All in all still cost quite a bit to hold space but is more in line with as i see a reasonable cost for a new corp to null sec space.
Now i can't know what you are thinking or planning behind your closed doors with this update so i suggest these numbers on the basis that this would be for holding one system. All in all if they want to upgrade the system then for the price of operating 5 POS's they can have everything you have listed. I believe this would enable people who at know how to operate in null sec to at least hold some space and would make it easier for more people to claim space as their own.
Now for those who are already in null sec, or have the desire to hold more space you should adjust the prices accordingly to reflect creating networks. for example you could for every system held after the first increase the price by 10% So the next system you hold in your list of systems under your control would look like this...
TCU - 7.7 mil per day INFS Hub - 3.3 mil per day supercapital construction - 1 mil per day cynosoral navigation - 3.3 mil per day ADV logistics network - 3.3 mil per day Cynosural suppression - 4.4 mil per day
(i didnt tax the construction addon for the sake of keeping the numbers even.) So now you own 2 systems and have the combined cost not only of the 18 mil to operate both at full addons but an additional tax of 2 million isk per day PER system. So total cost to run 2 systems is now 40 million isk per day. Now i dont know the numbers at all your looking at. I could be dead wrong in my prices and i wont kid myself to think i have the answer but i think what im suggesting could work.
Now an idea i had would be for controlling constellations. I believe that if you have the power and industry to hold an entire constellation there should be some semblance of a discount that locks in the price of that network of stars. As in if you go and claim a few other systems outside of your main constellation you wont be charged more on the constellations stars. The price to claim other stars however would cost more and be close to the model that you originally posted. like this perhaps
Cost of solar system PLUS 1 constellations already controlled
TCU - 15 mil per day INFS Hub - 5 mil per day supercapital construction - 2 mil per day cynosoral navigation - 4 mil per day ADV logistics network - 6.25 mil per day Cynosural suppression - 12.5 mil per day
Basically i think half of your currently posted prices. This of course would face a 10% tax per system held. but say you claim another constellation. Well this is where i think it could get complicated or interesting... which ever choice of words you like to use...lol. A tax on holding constellations and the subsequent price of the services in those systems would then increase again. im going to throw out a number say 20% ON TOP of the 10% per system. This may seem ludicrous and i believe it should be because this would then limit peoples conquistadorian nature and stop people from expanding too much and holding space for sake and still allow people with ridiculous amounts of isk to hold their desired space.
All in all this is just an idea im throwing out there as an alternative idea to what you have proposed and i hope people tear this apart so we can CONSTRUCTIVELY come to a better model than people just *****ing and saying its too high instead of giving ideas to fix it. i dont know if im the first to do this but kudos to people who may have done this before me.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 16:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lolion Reglo on 09/11/2009 16:23:22
Originally by: Kalisti If EVE wants alliances to maintain infrastructure in nullsec, let's take that sandbox all the way and fix nullsec once and for all.
They say that the upkeep costs are to maintain the jump gates? Let's get rid of nullsec NPC jump gates entirely and replace it with an entirely player-driven mechanic.
Nullsec PvP'ers don't want to farm for income? Let's get a realistic passive income option into play for nullsec alliances.
... ... ... ...
Frankly, anything short of this will never accomplish the goal of moving people into 0.0 space. It will always be populated by those devoted to 0.0 pvp for the sake of 0.0 pvp, and they will simply work around whatever broken mechanics CCP continues to introduce.
Kudos to this idea as well. i like it. And the goon post above me. I want to see another dev blog addressing the concerns we have posted here so we know they are watching what we are saying and making the changes necessary to fix this gigantic train wreck i am foreseeing.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 17:01:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lolion Reglo on 09/11/2009 17:04:53 perhaps a change in price then of what it will cost to control a system?... hmm oh wait didnt i propose that a few posts back? wouldnt that fix half the issues people are *****ing about right now? just an idea. you know,... maybe if people would look at it and debate if the numbers i propsed we might get ccp to change the price to fix this... you know... maybe. not trying to drop a HUGE ****ING HINT HERE. rofl.
Edit: Linky if anyone you know... is just curious... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=82#2456
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 17:20:00 -
[5]
EUREKA! IVE GOT IT!
Lets all whine and complain about how CCP is going to ruin null sec space and comment on each others whine posts instead of proposing ways they can FIX the train wreck we are seeing with the costs being so high in null sec and there being little to no rewards for the risk of being out there. Lets continue to dabble among ourselves in the unproductive way and really show them that no idea we have should ever be taken seriously. Brilliant.
Now if we are all quite finished highlighting the ways Null sec will suck if the current proposal by them goes through lets think of ways we can give them to FIX this issue like my post here Linkage or maybe even this post here Linkage
or any on of other ideas people have put up that no one is commenting on helping to flesh out so that CCP might be able to use it TO FIX WHAT YOUR *****ING ABOUT!
am i the only one seeing this trend or are there at least a few others seeing this pointless bickering going on? Cause if i am ill sit back and at least get plenty drunk off of all this wine you guys are posting. perhaps that will numb the sting from ccp's plan...rofl.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 17:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kanoubi
Originally by: Lolion Reglo EUREKA! IVE GOT IT!
You¦re my eyes , my consumer rights of posting an opinion, my forum god!
Please everyone ! .. stop posting , this man/woman is our voice.
Aleluia brother!
Finally someone!...rofl.
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Everyone's agreed that it's an awesome idea. The vision you outline is a great one, and CCP, 0.0 players, and empire-dwellers all agree on that. The problem isn't the idea, it's the execution. In order for what you propose to actually happen, the system upgrades have to be big and useful, or else alliances won't stop sprawling. Right now, the upgrades are small and crap, so nobody cares and nothing will change. It's a shame, really.
Originally by: Scatim Helicon Random quotes and retorts, etc...
Originally by: Mikal Drey you know i expected better from you tbvfh.
Mikal, I'm happy to disappoint, and I'll give a response along with a response to the quotes above.
CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding, and all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.
This change to mechanics isn't going to happen overnight with the launch of Dominion. It's a massive overhaul of how Eve operates, and it instantaneously affects TENS OF THOUSANDS of players the second Dominion goes live. It's not a case of changing the slot layout of a ship, or tweaking its stats. It's potentially game breaking on the most fundamental of levels.
The fact of the matter is, giving too much reward too soon would give the game's economy a massive heart attack. Of course CCP are going to implement it with pre-nerfed rewards. Its going to be monitored, tweaked, worked on, fiddled with and monitored some more before they're happy with it. Something this big as a change in game isn't going to be complete overnight, its part of the core of the game.
Its going to take time to balance it and watch to see how Eve reacts to it. This kind of thing is so large that its impossible to test on a development server. It has to be done in live play, because its not possible to simulate the effects of play on the scale of TQ on any of the test servers. The only thing that they can do is make sure the mechanics work fully.
0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out. Its just going to take time to implement and the best way to do it is by pre-nerfing the rewards until the dust settles around the launch of Dominion and CCP can see how alliances react to the new mechanics.
I wouldn't be surprised if over time the rewards get better, but for now all they're doing is playing it safe to make sure that they don't totally butt**** the game's economy by pouring trillions of ISK into the market because they made a bad call on the rewards for sov.
Sadly, people are more intent on spitting their lollipops out, whining like spoiled kids and demanding answers rather than getting their heads together and deciding how best to use the mechanics.
Its laughable to be honest, when so many have complained about the sov system.
This is something so large its not gonna be fixed overnight, it'll take time to adjust and tweak and there's nothing wrong with playing it safe so the game's economy doesn't get shafted in the process.
I actually didn't realize that aspect. Your right however i still think the price of sovernty is still a little step and think they should lower it for the sake of making it easier for people to access that space and use the upgrades mentioned. read my post for what i mean. Linkage
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.09 21:22:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lolion Reglo on 09/11/2009 21:22:44
Originally by: Tesal YES OR NO: Ham sandwich or tuna salad.
Still waiting.
A ham sanvich
OK. i give up worrying about this update. Thank you Verone for at least shoring up my faith that CCP knows what they are doing, and time to roll with this as far as it rolls. survive and adapt after all.
I still think the cost of upkeep is gonna sting though... cant they lower the initial base price down some?
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.10 04:18:00 -
[8]
Guys, im gonna let you finish but first... this is the *hic* best wine ive had in years!! *HIC*... seriously this must have been fermenting forever... *HIC* anyone got any cheese?
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:53:00 -
[9]
right then... after reading through this forum a little bit more today i have decided to share my knowledge with you guys on how i am getting drunk off of all this wine. There are lots of varieties in this thread and such and i'm sure your wondering how to pick and choose the best wine available that will give you not only the best buzz but also the smoothest taste as it goes down.
So here it is. supplied with links and everything to my recommend wines and their characteristics.
First off lets start with what the bad wines are. These are typically classified by their pointless bickering, name calling and argumentative fashion that really doesn't serve any purpose other than fueling a fire that quite honestly i'm sure people want put out. They're one step above trolls in that they aren't doing it for lulz they actually mean what they say but here is a few examples of what i have found
not very satisfying and very mildewy of past hate No taste at all with a horrid after taste leaves you wondering why even bother with such a bad wine another example of the above but without the after taste. this one just tries too hard. still to young a wine to have too have enough alcohol and still has a yeasty flavor to it. not satisfying at all.
So those are the bad wines. the ones that may get you drunk, but that is about it, no pleasant taste or enjoyment of this fine art of forum brewing.
However we have better examples... these are your middle road decent wines, not bad but aren't the classics well aged ones we all would love to have.
nice staple wine, clean not much taste but does the job and isn't an ass about it this is like a sparkling grape juice honestly. cute in its own right and great for the kids. comic relief that is occasionally needed. another sparkling grape juice but this one has more of a bite to it. still funny and good in its own right. very decent wine. good all around but doesn't quite give too many examples of what this thread needs.
Now were onto the true greats of wine in this thread. the ones people should really take notice of because of their IDEAS rather than OPINIONS.
excelent taste and very smooth argument clean and crisp with beautiful taste different taste and adds a whole new layer to ideas and thinking in the thread.
These are truly marvelous wines to take in and enjoy. I would love to see more like these in the thread but then again you cant get the best all the time now can you?
until then ill continue to sample the wines in this thread and ill pinpoint out the good and bad from this post on. until then continue to enjoy the wines i have listed and discuss more.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik For those who missed it, current SiSi prices (which can change still, of course):
TCU: 1m ISK / day Hub: 5m ISK / day Jump bridge: 10m ISK / day Cyno gen: 2m ISK / day Cyno jammer: 20m ISK / day CSAA: 1m ISK / day
If these numbers are the new prices for begining alliance i support them whole heartedly. sounds decent imho and afordable to even to noobest of groups. NOW what ithink should happen is if they dont want big alliances to spam systems they should scale the cost of upkeep, as in if you have so many systems under your control your price per system increases 25%. then if you reach antoehr teir it goes to 50%.
That is how i understood the mechanics at fan fest as to how this would work and how i think it should still be. If we could have CCP confirm this with releasing the numbers and the scale to what its going to cost to have a super empire then all my fears of this expansion will be extinguished. they can fiddle around with quality of upgrades when it drops and adjust as needed to demand and market strength.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.11 17:34:00 -
[11]
I know. For being apart of an alliance that holds about 6 or 7 systems in null sec all im concerned about is how much the price will scale and how much of a tax or lien the allaince will place on its corps to help support its claim to space. The fact the prices have dropped to this level means we can not only hold sov but also run a few POSes as well for about the same price we are currently running at.
So thank you CCP for responding to our concerns and adjusting the prices. I know you don't hear that often but hey, im just glad things seem to be looking up again.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.12 01:21:00 -
[12]
Some people obviously haven't noticed the change in price for the system upgrades and holding space now. The prices right now i could easily supply between ratting a system and doing a few other activities. So to say new alliances will have issues getting a system is a laughable argument now. The issues i still see and the only reason i see it is that will the price of holding space increase based on how many systems you control. A graph, or a equation or SOMETHING to explain to people how the cost will scale with the systems you control will put to rest peoples question as to how this stops huge alliances from still holding space.
The other argument id like to highlight because i agree with it is the concern about the QUALITY of null sec isk making. anomalies, mining, those with the system upgrades should improve the QUALITY of the spawns sopeople can make more. also with that the quantity should be increased so the systems can support more people as you said you wanted.
The way this works I think should be as follows. 1st level of the upgrades say tier 1 maybe 2 should increase the quality of spawns more than quantity. say 3 to quality to 1 to quantity in terms of ratio. as you get higher levels the quality wont increase as much opposed to the quantity of spawns in a system. THUS the quality hits the system right off the bat attracting more people to it which in turn grows the system which then promotes more people in space till it reaches its full capacity.
This "Idea" obviously only works with a "you must be active to grow the levels" type mechanic which if im reading right sounds to be what you guys are implementing. So if you have similar ideas or are working along these lines kudos, if not you may want to consider at least taking a look at the idea and really tear it apart to see if it could work.
Look forward to the next Blog CCP, keep up the hard work and don't disappoint.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.15 18:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Niamota Olin
All the really large alliances are just going to squash new players and out skill and out fly them.
People say about having a good industrial backbone to fund 0.0, it's awkward with current game mechanics or did no-one else notice that SB raid posted in the fifth corps briefing...
13 sb's attacking a big mining op, 77 barges/exhumers destroyed for the loss of just 4 attackers!!! Whats that, billions in industry backbone destroyed for the loss of a few hundred million in attackers.
The power is in the hand of the skilled attackers, I see nothing still in this expansion to encourage people into 0.0, and if it does, they'll just be fresh meat to the existing people there.
First of all they should have had a proper defense fleet to take care of cloaker freaks popping up and they should have maintained a watch for hostiles entering system. Soon as i see 4 reds pop into a system im running an op in i suspend operations and get everyone on standby to leave while getting our defense fleet ready to counter any attack they have. their own fault they lost several billions worth of isk in industrial equipment.
ALSO, CCP can't please everyone with this Expansion. Don't ask them too. The idea is to open up null sec space for the people who were interested in go out there. Not so much mission running carebears or people who like the safty of high sec. Its aimed more at the pvpers in high sec who want to be out in null sec, have the industry behind them to back it up but there isnt any space for them to really move into. Also... numbers and a variety of people over timezones is practically a requirement for operating out here.... so restart those recruitment drives, you'll need the numbers.
My corp was like this a few months back where we wanted desperately to join null sec space and we eventually found space in providence we could rent out and an alliance that operated out there willing to take us. We eventually learned how null sec worked and then moved up into an alliance that actually holds space. Now we own an outpost, help run a constellation and enjoying our end of the sandbox. Honestly CCP is not going to make it a cake walk to get out here. you have to have the drive and determination to get out here and honestly if our corp of half care bear, half fanged care bears can get our sorry asses out here over the period of a few months then anyone can. obviously if you want space for your alliance yourself it will take more work.
The numbers for operating sovereignty and the prices for the equipment are MORE than fair in price. 6 million a day to have a system and upgrade it is cake. so keep a guy in high sec running a mission a day if you have to. God knows that even when this expansion comes out ill still have a jump clone to motsu to run a mission or three to keep myself entertained and to get the lp for a Navy scorpion.
The point i'm making is prices are fair now, CCP needs to fix the isk making ability out there yes and they need to make it to support more people and have higher quality anonmalies and other stuff out there. So no they dont need to cater to the peace loving care bears who want to make money in peace. they are looking to make it more open for the low sec pvper's who are kinda already operating like null sec ut are orced to stay in low sec cause there is no space to go claim. All ive been eharing are people saying you should go straight from high sec to null sec... well you forgot the stop gap low sec in there and all them who WANT this kind of thing.
But i will be damned if ccp makes it a cake walk out here. this is the wild west for a reason. No mans land, the pit of despair, if your not ready to take risk, lose lots of isk, a few clones, your ass virginity, and your dignity a few times then by god stay in high sec. you'd be better off there anyway.
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Lolion Reglo
Demio's Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.16 20:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Niamota Olin lolian, you know the navy scorp is only from FW lp right...
Well **** i need to change systems them...lmfao.
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: Future Mutant
Originally by: Lolion Reglo numbers and a variety of people over timezones is practically a requirement for operating out here.... so restart those recruitment drives, you'll need the numbers.
This tbh.. Though so far the major null sec corps have shown zero interest in doing it. So when they disband, broken and broke- the mechanics cant be blamed. Blame instead their inability to adapt.
So mr level 4 mission runner, master of space politics. How will this patch drive more people out to null sec. They wont come now, so why will they come with this patch? There are plenty of corps that are open to taking people out into nullsec. But as you admit the money is way easier and way safer in empire. So why will they come?
Never said it would. The oath with the current mechanics for the upgrades wont attracth people. which is why im such a proponent for the upgrade of the quality of the things to do out there. All im saying is that those people who want to go out there now regardless of how much there is to be made will enjoy the space opening up, but as for drawing more people beyond that is up to ccp and how they fix the upgrades.
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